Tag Archive - Chad Markley

Chad and Sarah Markley Interview #3: Moving Forward

March 5, 2010 in Marriage-Family, Ministry-Theology, Therapy-Psychology with 1 Comment

I really appreciate Chad and Sarah opening up so much of their life with us this week. One of the reasons that I wanted to interview them was because I think that their story is, and can be so helpful to many other couples out there — and on so many levels.

And if you aren’t already reading their blogs, you definitely should be.

The final interview (3/3) is below, and you can catch up on the previous two in the links below.

You can read Part 1: here
You can read Part 2: here

This is Part 3 of 3

Sarah, I know you are working on a book and I was wondering if you could share how that process is going?

Sarah: I’m about 50 percent finished with my rough draft. I’m still actively seeking representation and a publisher. When it’s done it will be a creative retelling of my story focusing on redemption and hope but also explaining the factors that led me to the place I ended up.

You seem like you are a very creative family (writing, music, technology, etc.), and I was wondering what creative things you like to do together as a family?

Sarah: We try to give our kids as many experiences as possible without overwhelming them. I’m not talking Disneyland every day, but we do love to go to the science museum or the nature center and try to travel as much as we can as a family. Our girls love to draw and do crafts at the kitchen table. Chad often plays the guitar for them in the evenings and the three of them like to make up songs together. Our girls are involved in sports, dance and horseback riding. They know I’m writing a book and that I write daily on my blog.

Thirteen years in, what do you think is the best thing about marriage?

Sarah: Hands down: being married to my best friend is the best thing about marriage. And the fact that we each know most of each other’s faults and strengths is so comforting too. He knows all the bad things I’ve done and I know the same about him. Somehow we still love one another deeply.

Chad:For me it is shared experience. I love having someone to share the important moments with, both good and bad.

You mention that the two of you saw a counselor, so I’m naturally curious about the role that played in your recovery, if any?

Sarah: We went to see a Christian marriage and family counselor the week after my confession. She came highly recommended by a friend of our pastor’s and we met with her weekly for 6 months. At that time she moved to a different state and transferred us to another counselor in the same practice. We met with her weekly for another six months as well. Both counselors met different needs in us. The first one, besides helping us address the immediate problems, addressed Chad’s ADD and referred him to a psychiatrist so he could seek medication. The second therapist helped us to develop better methods of communication and walked us through some difficult times that occurred later in that same year.

Chad: Counseling was KEY!! People are crazy to think their pastor can understand every single crazy thing they are going through. It was important to me that the counselor was well trained and credentialed in their field AND was a Christ follower. We were able to find both of these at Center for Individual and Family Therapy.

How much information, if any, have you shared with your children?

Sarah: Our daughters are almost 4 and almost 8. We haven’t shared much with them. I plan on sharing some (limited) information with my oldest daughter in the near future. We agree that sooner is better than later when it comes to things like this, as long as it is age appropriate.

What are your hopes for the couples that you share your story with? What do you hope they walk away with?

Sarah:I would hope that they can see that no sin is too big for God’s grace, that God’s love is able to heal in mighty ways (even a heart which has been wounded as deeply as my husband’s) and that it is very possible to “come back” from something like this. Nothing in God’s kingdom is wasted and even something as horrible as what I did and what we went through, God has been using time and time again for His glory.

Do the two of you have any dreams and hopes for sharing your story with others? Speaking to churches, couples, etc.?

Sarah: I hesitate to use the word “dream”. “Hope” is a better word for what we would like to see happen, I think. We spoke together for the first time a couple months ago and when we did we felt right in the middle of our gifting. We worked well together with great chemistry and I think it was very effective. We hope to speak more in that manner. I also will be speaking by myself in the near future.

As a couple, what are you two really passionate about? What shared interests do you have that you really feel connected when you do together?

Sarah: As funny as this sounds, we love to talk about theology, social networking or technology. We are sort of geeks when you get us by ourselves. We have a shared love for people, our kids and our families. We’ll try anything new and we love love love to travel together. Go to a new city, explore the restaurants, walking routes and museums. Our favorite cities are London, Washington, D.C., Paris and Monterey, California. And before we had kids, we used to exercise together (gasp). Now we have to do that alone while the other sleeps in with the kids.

We’re passionate about real living and genuine Christ-following. We have a desire to see people talk about their stories with authenticity and to follow hard after Christ with true motivations behind what they do. We don’t like to “do church” for the sake of “doing church”. Worship, community, learning about God’s word and getting closer to Him — we desire to see people live this out in their lives between Sundays.

Chad: I echo what Sarah lists above but I need to also include my love of worship and music. I LOVE bringing people into worship ANYWHERE and ANYTIME I can get the opportunity.

How have your relationships with God changed as a result of the affair and the healing that has taken place?

Sarah: I often wonder if I was a true Christ-follower before my confession six years ago. I don’t know. There were times in my life that I sincerely wanted to do the right things and please God, but for the most part, my relationship with God before was lifeless and not based on a true love for Him. When I decided to give up the affair and focus on my marriage, my spirit, my heart and my soul was broken. I wanted to be different and the only way to do that was to follow Christ with my whole life. I read through the Bible in one year and I could feel and see the spiritual gifting that I’d suppressed begin to emerge again. I fell in love with Christ and I wanted to do everything possible to live righteously. Finally my Christianity was “real.”

Chad: I have a more realistic expectation of people now. I realize EVERYONE fails and no one is above falling into horrible sin. I also have come to the place where I realize it isn’t too late for anyone to come back to Christ. I think I see people more with His eyes now versus my own.

Chad and Sarah Markley Interview #2: In Process

March 3, 2010 in Marriage-Family, Ministry-Theology, Therapy-Psychology with 0 Comments

To read part 1 of my interview with Sarah and Chad Markley, read here.

In the interview today, I really wanted to focus on some of the questions that arose for me as I read Sarah’s blog posts about their story. It was in these blog entries that I really got a sense of a person–of a couple in process. So, much of the interview today was focused on getting a better sense of some of the things–some of the processes, boundaries and reasons behind much of her writing.

This is Part 2 of 3

Sarah, in your post Stifling, you talk about you being a controlling wife and Chad as being distance…or moving away from you as you became controlling. How do you now deal with the control issues?

Sarah: With grace. It’s part of my personality to be guarded, protective and thus a little controlling. I’m guarded with my time, energy and affection so when I wasn’t following Christ that transferred over into me being a demanding, selfish and controlling wife. After my confession we decided to “try out” living (as husband and wife) the way God intended: the husband lovingly leading and the wife graciously allowing him. I began to give up control. That has been one of the most freeing things I’ve ever done.

You make the comment in Cliches “No one wakes up one day and decides to commit adultery. I don’t know what other people have told you, but something like this takes a hundred million tiny poorly-made decisions layered on top of one another. Never excuses, but certainly reasons.” Do you think couples are often naïve of the small, tiny, daily choices they make, perhaps because they are so focused on trying to stay clear of making the big, wrong choice? Do you recommend how spouses can stay accountable in their day to day choices?

Sarah: I think that most couples will say that it could never happen to them. And only sometimes do I see couples who intentionally try to remain pure in the little things: glances, fantasy thoughts, discipline in keeping things alive between them and their spouse. So, yes, in a way I think that many couples are unaware of how little things can build up to really bad things. Even things like letting a self-serving attitude creep into a heart can make one “ready” to have an affair. With me, my heart became ripe for an affair because of pride and selfishness. How do we remain accountable? We are honest with each other, ourselves and with God. We are also both in strong, godly, same-gendered accountability relationships too in which the others have access to our spiritual lives, our hearts and motivations. A simple way to find out if an action or a thought is “unsafe” is to ask both your spouse and God if what you are doing is honoring to both your spouse and to the Lord. If you are scared to bring it up or talk about it, or if you deem it dishonoring, then the action or thought is probably a wrong choice. And you must be honest.

I loved the vivid imagery of a leaky colander, as you try to hold everything together in Dripping. What do you do now when you notice you are trying to hold everything together?

Sarah: Usually I crack emotionally, anger or tears and then I realize (from routine, experience) what I need to do to get it back together and on the right path both emotionally and spiritually. Sometimes I take a quick break by myself, sometimes I simply just tell Chad that I need a few minutes to be alone, and sometimes I need to spend time in specific prayer about it. But overall, it seems like God has brought me to a place where, even though I do get “off balance” once in awhile, I’ve been able to learn how to regain my balance and moderation.

Crash was so powerful, and while I was reading it, I kept trying to imagine what that would be like to be in that position. Sarah, how did you make it through that night? Chad, I was just thinking of how scary a night that was for you. Not only because of the news you were told, but of the possible reality you faced of having to raise your young girl alone, etc. What were you feeling, and how did you hold it together?

Sarah: Chad told me to go to my parent’s house to tell them what I did. I went, I confessed to them too and they lovingly welcomed me in. They were, of course, grieved, disappointed and hurt but they were able to love me even through their own pain. I was a mess, but somehow I made it through the night. Early on I was able to be very sorrowful about my sin and I felt immediately motivated to do whatever I needed to to make it right with God, Chad and the others I had hurt.

Chad: That night I wasn’t thinking so much about the future as I was feeling the hurt of betrayal and feeling like an idiot because I hadn’t seen what was going on the last 3+ years. I am not the biggest planner in the world so I don’t often think too far ahead. I was just dealing with the “now” of the situation, not so much the future.

Chad, I was really amazed by your almost immediate willingness to forgive Sarah. Sarah mentions that you didn’t want to, but you felt compelled to because of all that Christ had forgiven you of. Even though you forgave her that night was there a longer process that took place, or did it feel instant to you?

It was both instant and a process. I think it’s similar to salvation and the process of sanctification that follows. The big push is instant, salvation, we are changed in that moment. When I forgave Sarah it was legit and from the deepest core of my person. In that instant our relationship was changed. The actual living out of that choice, sanctification, takes time to process, take root and grow. It took about 6 months for the ache in the middle of the night to fully go away.

Sarah, in your final post Foundation you write, “I was done with my old self. I removed phone numbers from my phone, took pages out of my address book and deleted emails and voicemail messages. I began to try to erase all that had gone before. And God softened the hard places of my heart and brought me close.” I’m curious about this process, and what you now think of the ease with which people can connect and reconnect with people and past relationships online. Do you have certain boundaries online that the two of you hold to?

Sarah: Online: we know each other’s passwords to everything. Even though we don’t snoop, he is privy to all of my phone numbers, my text messages, my emails. I keep nothing from him. And the same with him.

The whole Facebook thing is interesting. Of course, that became very popular years after I had my affair, so during that time it was not a concern. But now, we are just careful to not friend ex-boyfriends or girlfriends and not to be overly friendly or conversational with members of the opposite sex.

The process of trying to “erase” the past was difficult and long. I did know one thing for certain: that I wanted nothing to do with my old life. So I began to try to get rid of the physical reminders (and temptations) that surrounded that old lifestyle. I never made another phone call or sent another email to the man I had the affair with.

The whole memory thing was the most difficult, however. I prayed for God to erase memories from my mind. I promised that I would share with Chad any detail he needed to know. And for a while he asked. But after some time passed, if he asked questions about the past it only served to bring up bad memories I was trying to forget. After time he stopped asking because there was no need for any more details. I have forgotten a great deal of the detailed memories (on purpose) but I still have some memory of that time. I think just enough to remind me how far I’d walked away from God and from my husband.

If you could give any piece of advice to married couples who are going through difficult times, what would it be?

Sarah: I think that couples need to count the cost of their relationship. Marriage will never be easy and will always require intentional work. If both people are willing to do whatever it takes to stay together for the endurance race then it will pay off in increasing love, intimacy and selflessness.

Chad: I agree with Sarah 100%! It all comes down to what you are willing to “pay” for the marriage. We see the price Christ places on us when we look at what the Cross cost Him.

Stay Tuned for Part 3…

Chad and Sarah Markley Interview #1: Their Story

March 2, 2010 in Marriage-Family, Ministry-Theology, Therapy-Psychology with 6 Comments

There are people online that I have never met in person, but that I feel like I know them. And those people I one day look forward to meeting in person. Just two of those people are Chad and Sarah Markley.

I randomly came across Chad online one day because we were following each other on Twitter and we shared some mutual friends that I have actually met in person (one of those being Rich Kirkpatrick). And then separately, I came across Sarah’s writing because of a tweet by Anne Jackson mentioning her. I’ve been a fan of Sarah’s blog ever since. In fact, my wife and I have often talked about Sarah’s writings, and things we have learned about marriage and relationships from them.

One of the things that has drawn me to Chad and Sarah Markley is their story–and not only their story–but their authenticity and vulnerability in which it is told. Sarah sums it up in these three short sentences on her blog:

I cheated on my husband nine years ago. I was lost and without hope. But God rescued me, my husband forgave me, and I am living a new life.

It’s an amazing story full of pain, sadness, forgiveness, hope and redemption. A story of two remarkable people that were held together and strengthened by a loving God.

It is because of their story that I wanted to interview them. It’s a story that I hear over and over again in my work as a marriage and family therapist and pastor. And in talking with them, I hope that their story can enlighten your own, and possibly help bring about hope and healing where it is needed. As well as helping couples read the warning signs in their own marriage.

This is Part 1 of 3.

How did you come to the decision that you wanted your story to be more visible and available for others to read and hear about?

Sarah: I knew that I’d be sharing my story eventually by writing a book and initially I thought I owed it to my blog readers to share with them first what God had done in my life before I become ultra-public by trying to get a book published. I had no idea that this story would attract so many new readers to my blog and reach out to a generation of women (and men) who have been hurt by infidelity.

Now we, as a couple, feel as if it is a calling to share our story with others

What were some of the lack of boundaries in your own marriage? Have you changed any boundaries in that setting? Can you give us any examples?

Sarah: We used to meet members of the opposite sex for lunch or at the gym. In fact, we used to do things alone with opposite gendered friends all the time: long phone conversations and emails. We didn’t really see anything wrong with it because we used each other for our measures of morality. If what I was doing wasn’t bothering my husband than it was okay for me to do. I wasn’t using God to determine if what I was doing was right or wrong. Our boundaries have changed immensely since my confession 6 years ago. (Sarah has written more on this topic here).

Chad: We make it a point to remind each other we are the others “number one”, especially in public. I need Sarah to know she is my only girl, but I also need others to understand she is my “number one” and vice versa.

What are some early warning signs of an emotional affair that you think many people overlook?

Sarah: Simply giving away too much of yourself. Sharing intimate thoughts, dreams or concerns in the name of “friendship” with someone of the opposite sex who is not your spouse is treading on dangerous ground. When you find yourself thinking about someone else, watching for them, dressing for them, finding excuses to talk to them – those are also bad signs.

Chad: I agree with Sarah. Things begin to get sideways when we get tired of working through things with our spouse and begin to look for “easier” outlets for our emotional, and eventually, and physical needs

What role, if any, do you think pornography played in your decision to have an affair?

Sarah: Pornography created an unattainable and unrealistic view of sex in my mind. I began to desire things that were outside of the realm of what intimacy in marriage should be. It became something that I needed (whether actually viewing it or thinking about it) to become aroused. So when I found myself in an inappropriate emotional relationship with another man, the sexual aspect of it just seemed less “sinful” because I was already fantasizing regularly in my mind.

Chad: I pulled Porn into our marriage to try and “liven” it up. It had been part of my personal sexual journey since 2nd grade and had poisoned my view and expectation of sex to a significant degree. When I introduced it into our marriage I subsequently brought that same level of unrealistic expectation into the marriage bed. The outcome was tragic and I believe was instrumental in opening doors that may have never been opened otherwise.

Stay tuned for Part 2…