I had a chance to sit down with Carlos Whitaker after the ECHO Conference and to talk about the upcoming Cultivate Conference in Chicago, October 27.
Check out Carlos below as he talks about why you should attend.
We hope to see you there.
I had a chance to sit down with Carlos Whitaker after the ECHO Conference and to talk about the upcoming Cultivate Conference in Chicago, October 27.
Check out Carlos below as he talks about why you should attend.
We hope to see you there.
I’ve been really impressed with Clover and the beautiful websites they have developed, and especially the intuitive ease with which they are designed…especially for those of us who don’t know how to program or code. I recently sat down to interview them and to get a better sense of who they are as a company and what they are about.
Tell me a little about the history of Clover. How did is start? Who was involved? What was the impetus behind their decision to start Clover?
Clover was created out of a design firm called ‘The Regime’. Our developers, Ben and Jim, started ‘The Regime’ back in 2007 and primarily did custom, super-creative work for bands, companies, restaurants, and ministries. After their home church (Cornerstone
Church of Simi Valley, CA) began planting a bunch of churches throughout the country, it didn’t take them very long to see the greater need for websites in the church community. They realized that not every church could afford a $15,000-$20,000 dollar website, and this prompted the idea of ‘Clover’. Clover was launched on May 15, 2008. They figured if they could create sites that met churches’ needs,
and could offer it to many people (rather than a few), they could charge so much less for it. They would also make it to where ministries weren’t dependent on having a programmer on staff or a web company to update their site… This would allow the ministry to save a ton of time and money, both of which are hard to come by. The result was Clover.
What is the #1 reason do you think that people come to Clover for their website needs?
We have found that the main reason people come to Clover is because there is nothing else out there like it. If you have spent any time at all looking for a website for your ministry, you will find that Clover is the only solution that combines beautiful designs, reasonable pricing, and unbelievably easy site management.
What separates Clover from the other web developing companies out there that are aimed for churches and ministries?
I think the ease of use really sets us apart from every other offering out there. With our new Greenhouse 2.0 (coming soon!), our new features will spark even more interest, but our CMS (Content Management System) just trumps anything out there. Another really cool thing about Clover is that you can test out every single feature before ever buying a site. You can go our site (cloversites.com), click on any one of the designs, and actually edit our sample sites. You can put your own photos, your own audio or video sermons, your page
titles and content, all without ever spending a dime. It’s really the best way to see everything Clover has to offer.
You talk about the “ideal user” on your website, but I was wondering if you could answer that again for me. What is the ideal user…or who predominantly comes to Clover for their web development needs?
I would say our ‘ideal user’ is someone who values beauty and current-looking websites, but isn’t a programmer
What is the mission/vision behind Clover, and how does Clover strive to have “Kingdom impact.”
Definitely one of the missions behind Clover is to get the Word of God out. Now, every ministry can have an online presence to reach their community for Christ that is current, gripping, and clean. This is absolutely the most vital part of what we’re doing here at Clover.
Ministries can put their messages on their site to share the Gospel to anyone visiting them online. Clover wants to help equip ministries
to do the work God has called them to do.
If someone is reading this interview, and they are shopping around for a website, what would you say to them to convince them to come to Clover?
The beauty of Clover is that we really don’t have to do much convincing… All we really have to have people do is try everything out at www.cloversites.com.
“I had three chairs in my house; one for solitude, two for friendship, three for society.” Henry David Thoreau
My father shared that quote with me in mid-July when he was visiting and we had found ourselves on the topics of social media, writing, ministry, solitude, etc. Since then that image of the three chairs has been seared in my mind.
We are quite good at friendship and society, yet I think most of us are quite terrible at solitude and silence. What often leads people into my therapy office is their inability to sit with what bubbles up inside when they are still, so they fill their life with noise. I think if we are not careful, we can allow social media to fill our lives with so much noise that we lose the ability to be thoughtful, reflective people. We forfeit the opportunity to grow. It was Blaise Pascal who said, “I have discovered that all human evil comes from this, man’s being unable to sit still in a room.”
Choices
They have not come easy, but I am slowly making some choices in my life in regards to my social media use that I hope will help me not lose the ability for silence and reflection. And I’m not alone in this. It seems that everyone is trimming back to some degree, whether it be deleting their Facebook, cutting back Twitter followers, or by changing their blogging platform. Kem Meyer had a post, Information Obesity, with great insight into why I think people are choosing to cut back. In doing these things people are hoping to find less noise, and hopefully more time for reflection and silence.
I think this will be a continual process as we all continue to filter out how to be effective online without losing ourselves in the process. If we don’t work at this process I think we may find ourselves sometime in the near future with some regrets about how much of ourselves we gave away to others, and how little we have for ourselves, especially our interior lives. I have decided that I’m only going to blog a maximum of one time a week at this blog, and my therapy blog. The rest of the time you can find me somewhere else online, whether it be Twitter, Friendfeed, posterous, Facebook, or something else. I’m sure I will be cutting back and simplifying these things as well.
What We Are After
In his phenomenal book, The Way of the Heart: Connecting with God Through Prayer, Wisdom, and Silence, Henri Nouwen makes the case that solitude, silence and prayer are necessary for our lives. He says:
“It is not difficult to see that in this fearful and painful period of our history we who minister in parishes, schools, universities, hospitals, and prisons are having a difficult time fulfilling our task of making the light of Christ shine into the darkness. Many of us have adapted ourselves too well to the general mood of lethargy. Others among us have become tired, exhausted, disappointed, bitter, resentful, or simply bored. Still others have remained active and involved–but have ended up living more in their own name than in the Name of Jesus Christ. This is not so strange. The pressures in the ministry are enormous, the demands are increasing, and the satisfaction diminishing. How can we expect to remain full of creative vitality, of zeal for the Word of God, of desire to serve, and of motivation to inspire our often numbed congregations? Where are we supposed to find nurture and strength? How can we alleviate our own spiritual hunger and thirst?” (pp. 2-3).
Solitude…
“Solitude is the furnace of transformation. Without solitude we remain victims of our society and continue to be entangled in the illusions of the false self.
Jesus himself entered into this furnace. There he was tempted with the three compulsions of the world: to be relevant (“turn stones into loaves”), to be spectacular (“throw yourself down”), and to be powerful (“I will give you all these kingdoms”). There he affirmed God as the only source of his identity (“You must worship the Lord your God and serve him alone”). Solitude is the place of great struggle and the great encounter–the struggle against the compulsions of the false self, and the encounter with the loving God who offers himself as the substance of the new self.” (pp. 15-16)
Silence…
Silence is the way to make solitude a reality…
Over the last few decades we have been inundated by a torrent of words. Wherever we go we are surrounded by words: words softly whispered, loudly proclaimed, or angrily screamed; words spoken, recited, or sung; words on records, in books, on walls, or in the sky; words in many sounds, many colors, or many forms; words to be heard, read, seen, or glanced at; words which flicker off and on, move slowly, dance, jump, or wiggle. Words, words, words! They form the floor, the walls, and the ceiling of our existence.
It has not always been this way. There was a time not too long ago without radios and televisions, stop signs, yield signs, merge signs, bumper stickers, and the ever-present announcements indicating price increases or special sales. There was a time without the advertisements which now cover whole cities with words.
Recently I was driving through Los Angeles, and suddenly I had the strange sensation of driving through a huge dictionary. Wherever I looked there were words trying to take my eyes from the road. They said, ‘Use me, take me, buy me, drink me, smell me, touch me, kiss me, sleep with me.’ In such a world who can maintain respect for words?
All this is to suggest that words, my own included, have lost their creative power. Their limitless multiplication has made us lose confidence in words and caused us to think, more often than not, ‘They are just words.’” (pp. 37-38)
Prayer…
“Solitude and silence can never be separated from the call to unceasing prayer. If solitude were primarily an escape from a busy job, and silence primarily an escape from a noise milieu, they could easily become very self-centered forms of asceticism. But solitude and silence are for prayer. The Desert Fathers did not think of solitude as being alone, but as being alone with God. They did not think of silence as not speaking, but as listening to God. Solitude and silence are the context within which prayer is practiced.
The literal translation of the words ‘pray always’ is ‘come to rest.’ The Greek word for rest is hesychia, and hesychasm is the term which refers to the spirituality of the desert. A hesychast is a man or a woman who seeks solitude and silence as a the ways to unceasing prayer. The prayer of the hesychasts is a prayer of rest. This rest, however, has little to do with the absence of conflict or pain. It is a rest in God in the midst of a very intense daily struggle.” (pp. 63-64)
The Running of the Salmon
When I was in high school my family and I went on an Alaskan cruise, and along the way we stopped at one of the islands to get a tour of where the salmon swim upstream during the spawning season. I don’t remember a lot of details about what I learned on that day, but I do remember some of the images. They can best be described as sea of confusion and chaos, where the salmon swam furiously upstream, looking nothing like themselves in the process.
Sometimes I feel that way when it comes to my social media/technological life. It can be confusing, chaotic, and I often feel like I’m swimming upstream in a sea of confusion. Ultimately that leaves me feeling “other” than myself, and my identity looking nothing like I hope or want. I feel like in the process I become less of who I am in order to keep up with who everyone else is…or projects themselves to be.
How Does Social Media/Technology Fit Into My Life
I have been thinking about how social media/technology fits into my life for a long time, and it wasn’t really until I attended John Dyer’s workshop, Using Technology, Without Technology Using You at the ECHO Conference, that I really got a better sense of what I want out of it.
One: I don’t want to feel a sense of obligation to post blogs I don’t want to write, or use tools that I don’t want to use. This obligation comes from me, inwardly, not cause someone is holding me to it. And that’s a much deeper issue than I can begin to explore in this post.
Two: I don’t want just a breadth of content, but a depth of content. I don’t want content that is just cursory. I have concluded that I would rather post one very meaningful blog every week or two, then a short, cursory post every day. I’m starting to realize personally, how attracted I am to the sites that plumb the depths, rather than skim the surface.
Three: I don’t want social media/technology to overrun the boundaries I’m trying to set. If it’s getting in the way of spending time with family, going to bed at a decent time at night, or keeping me from hobbies like running and reading, then I need to put it back within its proper boundaries.
Four: I don’t want my identity to be based on the projection of external images I put out online, and the affirmation I receive back from them. I want it to come within, from a strong, core sense of identity. An identity that is placed in Christ, and not the number of Twitter followers or retweets I have, or the amount of traffic my blog has, or the supposed sphere of influence I have online. At the end of the day, those things just fade away.
This is what I want…for me. I’m not telling anyone else what they should do, or that this is the way everyone should do it. Some people work online all day, and social media is even more a part of their lives than mine. But even they tell me they have to set boundaries away from that work as well. One of the things I really appreciate about Tony Steward is how he continually experiments with social media to figure out how it can best serve him, not how he can serve it. Tony knows what’s in his “wheelhouse” (@mediapeople pointed this out to me in a conversation at ECHO), and doesn’t seem concerned about his stats, and whether or not he has a new post out every day. This is nowhere better exemplified than Tony ditching his personal WordPress blog, and going with Posterous because it better fit his life/work/time, etc.
What Will Change For Me
One: I hate to do it, but I’m no longer going to feel rushed to post my 100 blogs in 100 days on my therapy site. I could do it. But I started looking at my posts and realizing that it was more about surface content, than it was about really writing something of value for people. That’s not what you want as/for a therapist. Or pastor…or anyone really.
Two: I’m going to really strive to only post stuff on both rhettsmith.com and rhettsmith.com/therapy when I feel like it brings value to the readers, rather than just posting to post. Not give in to the pressure of traffic, stats, etc.
Three: I’m not going to sacrifice my family or hobbies in order to pick up the computer to post that obligatory post, or tweet that random tweet. Just isn’t worth it for me.
Four: I’m going to focus more on what is in my “wheelhouse.” It’s too easy to get caught up in random discussion, or arguments and debates online, and really lose focus of the specific skills or purpose I need to be about.
Conclusion
At this point, this blog is all talk unless I really start to practice what I am preaching. But I hope with some new focus, and some accountability from my wife and friends like you, I can achieve these things.
Can you relate to this struggle with social media/technology in your own life?
Is there anything you want to change about your social media/technology use?
Does social media/technology serve you, or do you serve it?
By the way, did you know salmon only spawn once in their lifetime and then they die? Don’t be a salmon when it comes to your social media use.
A couple of different times this week people brought (thanks @justinwise and @witheringfig) this article to my attention, Can ‘Real’ Christians Be Depressed?
And of course, I say EMPHATICALLY YES! (Plus, I’m not really sure what they mean by ‘real’ Christians anyways). By the way, it’s a good article, and I’m glad they wrote it.
If you know me, know my writing, or have seen any of my posts this last week then you know that I think depression is a huge issue, and that it affects all kinds of people, regardless of race, culture, sex, religion, etc. It knows no boundaries and we are all susceptible to it.
It does not matter if one has a strong faith, or a weak faith, depression can strike at anytime. It doesn’t matter if you pray everyday, or pray every once in a while, depression can strike anytime. It doesn’t matter if you go to church, memorize the Bible and do door to door evangelism…yes, depression can strike anytime.
There are plenty of examples in Scripture where God’s people…prophets, kings, disciples were brought to a place of what looks like depression. To places at times where they didn’t even want to go on with life.
I think that we do a disservice to people when we excuse their depression as simply spiritual, or we treat them as if all they need to do is read their Bible more. As I said before, if I have a heart problem, I’m going to go talk with someone who has been trained to know the inner and outer workings of the heart. If I have cancer, I’m going to go see a specialist who knows about cancer. And if I have depression, then I want to talk with someone who takes me seriously and knows how to treat depression.
Does God, the Bible, our spiritual lives, have a role in depression? Sure! They can be all great sources of comfort and encouragement, especially in dark times. And ultimately, if we are Christians, we place our faith, trust and hope in Christ, and that he is the great healer. But I also think God has created us to help one another, and he has gifted many people with certain skills to help people in certain times. So why not in depression then?
Let me get down off my soapbox now and leave you with a quote from the article that I particularly liked.
Depression should be treated and can be put into remission through a course of psychoanalysis, cognitive therapy and/or antidepressant medication, supplemented by healthy doses of prayer within a loving Christian community. It is nonsensical to tell a depressed person that if he only read his Bible more or had better quiet times, his depression would surely be lifted. That would be like telling a diabetic that faith alone will regulate her insulin levels. Faith alone gives eternal salvation, but in the meantime, God has given us resources by which to make our temporal existences more palatable. Depression is certainly healed by the grace of God, sometimes directly and miraculously, but more often through the tools of His servants, like pharmacists, therapists, pastors and friends.
So what do you think?
Discernment
As we talk and think about the issue of depression in ministry one of the most important factors that we have in helping us determine what exactly we are dealing with is discernment.
the quality of being able to grasp and comprehend what is obscure
Discerning what type of help a person needs can be tricky. Should they see a therapist? A psychiatrist? Both? Is a recommendation for meds necessary? Are we dealing with depression, melancholy, burning out, etc? Maybe it’s all, maybe it’s some, maybe it’s none. But the act of discernment is a process and often involves multiple people helping one through their difficult journey.
In the book Depression and Hope: New Insights for Pastoral Counseling (which I mention quite a bit, is a great resource, and which I will reference and quote from heavily in this post), Howard W. Stone says:
Depression disturbs one’s most important relationships; for melancholics this may mean family members or close friends. For the mystic or hermit monk, and indeed for all faithful Christians, that most important relationship is with God. When people feel the absence of God, when they doubt, when religious ritual and service lose meaning, their experiences are very similar to the symptoms of depression.
Pastoral caregivers listen in a certain way to the words of those who are disconsolate, a way that is distinct from other helping professionals. To clergy and other professionals in ministry, despair, suffering, struggle, and adversity are laden with spiritual import, because reflection on the experience of melancholy and spiritual desolation can bring depth and meaning to those who are trying to be faithful to the call of Christ (Stone, 21).
When dealing with issues of such vital importance, you can see why discernment is key. In fact, I would say that it’s quite rare for most people entering into ministry to have a decent understanding of mental health issues and the role of the pastor in pastoral caregiving.
In his book Stone talks about four experiences that “compare strongly to depression: the dark night of the soul, ‘accidie’, desolations, and Martin Luther’s understanding of ‘Anfechtungen’”. Fascinating stuff! Let me just mention them briefly here:
“you may have questions about whether Christians should take this or that. You get in that state, I assure you, you will take rat dung.” Pastor Tommy Nelson on his depression
Why the Stigma?
Let me start this post by saying this. When it comes to the issue of taking medication for depression…there are some Christians who believe in it, and those that do not.
I believe in them. And I’m not trying to convince you otherwise. That will require circumstances, experiences convincing beyond my control.
I have worked long enough in the ministry and therapeutic setting to see the amazing and beneficial results that they have had in the lives of the co-workers, students and clients that I have journeyed through life with.
I believe God has given scientists/doctors/researchers amazing minds to create some medications that can help.
As one friend says, “If someone is diabetic, they are going to take insulin…aren’t they?”
Or I tell my friends, “If you have a heart condition, you are going to the cardiologist, right?”
So what’s the stigma around mental health and medications in the Christian life? I’m not completely sure. There is some disconnect it seems. Or rather than disconnect, there is some inconsistency in how we pick and choose what areas of our lives we seek help on, and what areas we think we should be able to pick ourselves up by our own bootstraps.
The fourth and final video I shot for LifeChurch.tv on depression aired today and is titled Finding Hope. Monday’s video was An Anchor in the Journey-Exodus 17:1. Tuesday’s video was Depression-At the Movies continued. Wednesday’s video was Walking Through Depression.
As we end this week looking at depression I wanted to focus on the idea of hope, because without hope in our lives, it is very difficult to move forward, especially out of things like depression and anxiety. The theologian Jurgen Moltmann says:
Hope is a power in this life to begin life again, to be reborn in an affirmation of life from deep depression. At the same time, hope is a comfort in the world to come beyond death. These are not contradictions. The more hope gives strength in this life, the more comfort it gives in the life to come.
The great writer Parker Palmer (who I referenced in a couple of videos) says this about his own depression. In fact, I recommend his book Let Your Life Speak: Listening for the Voice of Vocation where he talks at length about the role of depression in his life.
I got tremendous help from a therapist at one point — in one of my depressions — who said to me, “Parker, you seem to keep treating this experience as if depression were the hand of an enemy trying to crush you. Would it be possible to re-image depression as the hand of a friend trying to press you down to ground on which it’s safe to stand?” Well, those words didn’t mean much to me immediately because when you’re there, you can’t hear that kind of counsel. But they grew on me, those words did.
So as we go out into the world, let me encourage you in how you might play a vital role in helping others through depression…through the dark times in their lives. There are many ways to do this, but let me leave you with one idea: HOSPITALITY.
“One way to build upon people’s strengths is to show them hospitality. The counseling session needs to be a place where counselees are welcomed, encouraged, and complimented for what they are doing well, not where their past wrongs or present pathology is dredged up….Showing hospitality has for centuries been one of the vital tasks of pastoral care (Depression and Hope: New Insights for Pastoral Counseling, 61).
Just as a therapist welcomes, as well as provides an encouraging environment where one’s strengths and possibilities for the future are opened up, those in the Church need to do the same.
My hope is that one day those suffering from depression will not just seek the safety within the therapist’s walls, but will find a safety within the walls of the Church.
Questions:
Disclaimer: This blog post is not to be a substitute for professional help or advice. Please consider seeking out professional help if you consider yourself to be at risk for depression.
Today, LifeChurch.tv posted the third of four videos that I shot with them on depression. Monday’s video was An Anchor in the Journey-Exodus 17:1. Tuesday’s video was Depression-At the Movies continued. Today’s video is Walking Through Depression. In today’s video I share about the prophet Elijah wanting to die, and actually asking God to take his life away.
Sometimes our depression becomes so severe that we just can’t even function. It evolves into an anguish that is difficult to cope with at times, and sometimes we wonder if we can move on. That is a difficult place to be, and it is not uncommon among humanity.
One of the things I have been reading a lot about recently is the issue of anxiety, and how anxiety lies between our knowledge of possibilities, and actuality. This is something that Kierkegaard talks a lot about, and I think he has some good things to say on the topic of depression.
Kierkegaard is one of my favorite writers, thinkers, philosophers, theologians, and psychologists. Ever since reading Fear and Trembling when I was 22 he has continued to profoundly shape my life and thinking.
So it is not surprising that in the book Depression and Hope by Howard W. Stone, that it is Kierkegaard that has something to say to us on this issue. Let me quote at length the following passage from the book:
Soren Kierkegaard’s understanding of persons–for our purposes depressed persons–also helps us understand hope. In The Sickness Unto Death, he describes persons as possessors of actuality, freedom, and possibility. All three are a part of the authentic self, and a good relationship of all three is necessary for authentic existence. Actuality refers primarily to the past; it includes our context, our psychological predispositions, and choices we have previously made.
Freedom is what we have in the present. It is a finite freedom, exercised within the limits of our situation and abilities, our givens and past choices. Because of our actualities we cannot simply become whatever we want to be ‘if we try hard enough for it.’ We make choices, and act, from the range of options available to us.
Possibility addresses the future. It is what we can become as we use our freedom. In that respect our possibilities are not predetermined. We are not automatons. We can imagine, and within the givens of life we can become something new. Living as an authentic self, according to Kierkegaard, means looking beyond our immediate necessities or past liabilities. We anticipate the future with the awareness that we are free–however limited–to actualize whom we ought to become as faithful Christians and to take responsibility for shaping that future. Continue Reading…
As I mentioned yesterday, I had the opportunity to share some thoughts around depression with LifeChurch.tv. The first video, An Anchor in the Journey-Exodus 17:1 appeared yesterday, and I posted a little more details on my blog, Depression: Getting Honest With Our Journey.
You can check out the second video, Depression: At the Movies continued.
Assessing Depression
There are a variety of factors and tools that one may use in assessing if someone has depression. In therapy, there are usually a few basic questions I ask to better assess what is going on. In my work as a Marriage and Family Therapist one of the main tools that we use is the DSM-IV (i.e. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders). Whether or not one believes in diagnosing individuals, some of the criteria they provide is very helpful in getting a sense of the symptoms that one is exhibiting.
As a pastor, leader, or volunteer in the Church you most likely will not look at the criteria in the DSM-IV, but it’s important to have a baseline of criteria that one’s symptoms can be measured against. A book that I have found really helpful is Depression and Hope: New Insights for Pastoral Counseling by Howard W. Stone. In this great book Stone says the following:
Criteria for Depression
Depression, or melancholia, is known in psychiatric terminology as major depression to distinguish it from the normal low periods that many people go through. The psychiatric diagnostic criteria for major depression lists nine symptoms, as follows:
- Depressed mood, sadness, irritability part of each day, nearly every day
- Diminished pleasure or interest in daily activities
- Considerable weight loss or gain, change in appetite
- Significant change in sleeping patterns (The most common result is early waking.)
- Marked increase or decrease in movement (Most commonly the person physically slows down.)
- Fatigue and loss of energy
- Feelings of worthlessness or guilt (The feelings are beyond the scope of how people would usually feel.)
- Difficulty in concentration
- Ideas of suicide or death
To be diagnosed with major depression according to the American Psychiatric Association criteria, persons must exhibit at least five symptoms for a minimum of two weeks, and have either depressed mood or diminished pleasure or interest on most days for at least part of the day (APA 1994). These criteria are a good basis for determining if someone really is depressed. The certainly are not exhaustive but signal that a person’s story may be one of melancholia. (pp. 65-66)
Have you, or are you experiencing any of these symptoms? Have you sought out help for them? Continue Reading…