I don’t even know where to start. There were such great comments on my post from Monday. When I wrote the post I knew that I wasn’t the only one thinking about this topic, but it was amazing to read some great insights that I had not thought about.
A couple of things jumped out at me:
- Dan’s thoughts about “dual citizenship” and blurring the lines between staff and everyone else.
- Sara’s thoughts were super insightful. I worked/do work for a PCUSA church that hires women, but still at disproportionate numbers to men. But she is right, lots of women hope for just a part-time role, making them bivocational traditionally, especially in Evangelical circles.
- Dave’s comments about not getting respect in a bivocational role I thought were interesting. And later I read online about how many bivocational pastors are considered second class compared to full-time pastors.
- Kenny, you are right, the arrows should point together.
- Danny, it is a beautiful thing: movement towards group leadership.
- Jon, I love your heart (I work with Jon) for church ministry and ministry at the skate shop, etc.
So you all left me with a lot to think about. And I will process them more in some upcoming posts.
But let me summarize for you what I’m feeling and thinking in a few statements. But before I do that, let me say this. I have grown up in the Church. My dad went to Dallas Seminary and planted a church in Phoenix, AZ when I was 2 years old. So I have grown up in the Church. It is second nature. I’m the kid folding bulletins, staying late to greet all the members, waiting around for Deacon meetings to end, etc, etc. I have been volunteering in more official roles since I was 13, and I have been on staff of churches since I was 22. I just wrapped up eight years as a full-time college pastor. So I love the Church. I love ministry. I have been both part-time and full-time and now I’m currently part-time.
I say all this to say, that I have experience in the Church, and the views I’m wrestling with right now are not a value statement on one position being better than the other. I’m neither for or against full-time, part-time, bivocational, non-vocational…whatever. I’m just in the process of asking questions and re-thinking some things.
So the following are some thoughts that I sent out to a friend who is working on a church ministry/leadership project that has been surveying leaders all around the country for the last year. I talked about this issue with them, and spoke about the same thing, but in two different ways.
This is what I told them.
First Statement:
I have been thinking a lot lately about the idea of “tentmaking” and the need for more bivocational pastors and ministry leaders.
This is something that I have been processing for several reasons.
First, when a pastor receives all of his/her salary from the church, I think there is an unconcious desire to not rock the boat or take risks out of fear that one may lose their job (How many times have you heard of pastors not making certain decisions out of fear of alienating the big money givers?)
Second, I think that when we enter full-time ministry and all of our work is done in the church, we slowly begin to lose touch with the realities of everyday life and the struggles of the families we minister to. This is really prevalent in the expectations that many pastors have for their congregations time…when many congregants are working full-time jobs, raising families, etc. and the pastor is paid to be at the church. Pretty soon the pastor’s everyday reality is projected onto the congregation.
Third, it not only affects the pastoral/ministry roles, but the congregants as well, in that there is the built in expectation that because pastors are paid to do ministry, then somehow many congregants feel like they are ‘off the hook’ since that is not their job.
I think that if more churches were structured with bivocational pastors and ministry leaders, then there would be a stronger empowerment for the community to engage in the work of the ministry together, rather than deferring to full-time leaders. And I think many pastors would be more in touch with the realities of life outside the church, rather than thinking that everything revolves around what happens within the walls of the physical church building.
This is not to say that there should be no full-time pastors/ministry leaders, but I think we have to start re-thinking what that looks like.
Second Statement:
I’m beginning to wonder if full-time ministry positions actually inhibit the decision making process within the church, as well as the engagement of the community in the work of ministry. Do we as full-time ministry leaders take all the necessary risks, or are we handicapped out of fear of alienating the congregation, especially those who give money? Do we as the congregation defer the work of ministry to full-time leaders, out of the expectation that that is what they are paid to do? These questions have me wondering about the importance of more bivocational ministry leaders and tentmaking structures within the leadership role.
OKAY THEN…THOUGHTS? QUESTIONS? REBUKES?
There was a lot to process in that post, but it is all very good. I think it is our responsibility to rethink church leadership, and the church structure in general. The moment we accept things because “that’s the way they are” we are in trouble, big trouble. As a new generation moves into leadership roles, there should be noticable differences. Things cannot stay the same for tradition’s sake; that is what is killing the American church. Bivocational pastors is a great way to destroy perceptions and misconceptions of what the church is and how it opperates
Sam,
Great comments…I agree…there is a new generation moving into leadership roles. And we cannot stay the same for traditions sake.
Apparlnety this is what the esteemed Willis was talkin’ ’bout.
8WhknL qzllnueukyvi
Under your first statement, I don’t agree that either the first or the third reasons are dependent on a fully vocational pastor.
I agree that both COULD happen, but I think they’ll happen anyways. It’s not about the professional status of the pastor, but the culture of the church. Even if the pastor is part-time and not dependent on his full salary, how many people do you know that can live on a half-time salary? And how many churches could survive financially without the big money donors? If you’ve got the guts to stand up for what’s right, you’ve got the guts. It doesn’t matter if you’re full or part time.
And also, a bi-vocational pastor doesn’t have to lead to a congregation that’s more empowered. It may be more lay-led as far as the church infrastructure, but that doesn’t amount to poo. I’ve witnessed hundreds of small Baptist churches in both the Southeast and the Pac NW that have bi-vocational pastors that are essentially the same (in their functional witness) as the small churches that have full time pastors.
Petey,
Good thoughts. We need to sit down and discuss this over coffee or at Ginger Man
Here are my thoughts:
1. Full-time paid staff positions are a part of a false caste system that mainly (based on my very limited experience with churches outside the US) seems to exist in the Westernized church. Laity, Ministers, Missionaries. This false system has created an unhealthy co-dependence and it has had a huge effect on the mission of the Church over the years.
2. Laity can do many things in the church but the system tends to lead/allow/foster the general “non-staff” Christians to abdicate evangelism/mission to “the professionals.”
Of course most of the time “pastoral staff” thrives on this role and enjoys taking the credit but also feels resentful that the “regular joe/jane pew dweller” isn’t doing their part.
The cycle is self-defeating because “their part” typically consists of “bringing their friends & neighbors to church.” This further enforces the idea that “the professional ministers” are really the only ones truly capable of “evangelism.”
This repeats itself in a similar why with missionaries at the “pinnacle” of Christiandom. Even the “church staff” are only occasionally involved in “mission(s)” during a week or two set aside each year.
Laity abdicate responsibility of evangelism to ministers.
Ministers abdicate responsibility of missions to missionaries.
I think we are seeing a “new class” emerge called “church planters.” Paul trained up indigenous leaders to do every kind of ministry…
You know more about codependency, what are you thoughts on this idea and how to address it through wise counsel of scripture. Do we correct the system or do we need a new one entirely?
3. To be honest sometimes it cuts both ways. It feels like a trap at times. I have been trained/educated for “vocational” ministry both at the under-graduate and graduate level. When I have been in need of finding a “secular” job it has been very difficult because of my singularly focused experience and education. Some will tell me it is “proof/evidence/re-affirmation” of my “calling,” whereas others do seem inclined to make value statements like “getting a real job” or working in the “real world.”
Michael,
Nice thoughts man…
Caste system??? Not disagreeing, just never heard it put that way…
Thanks for sharing. We need to hang out.
FYI: I mean you (Rhett) probably can speak to the idea of codependency from your perspective as a counselor, when I worded it “you know more about codependency” I realized that was not clear after I had already submitted the reply.
I think you need to talk about this in ranges or tenancies. I think Petey above is right that having a part time pastor does not mean that there is not a caste system or having multiple staff does not mean that there will be. There may be a stronger tendencies but we should not speak too strongly.
Another thought, my dad is an area minister (he works with about 80 churches as the denominational representative and helps churches find new pastors and deal with internal conflict). He said when he first started helping churches, he would have churches that would for pastors that had musical wives so that she could lead music, play piano, etc (so they didn’t have to pay a second person). Now he is regularly being asked by churches for pastors with employed spouses (some churches still say wives, but more do not) so that they don’t have to pay insurance. They want teachers, nurses, etc. that have good union benefits.
Adam,
I've noticed from your comments in this post and other…you have a lot of great experiences in church ministry. Thanks for sharing them with me.
I agree with you about speaking this in terms of ranges or tendancies. So true…I don't have a black/white view of this, though I may speak like I do.
Rhett, what are some of the adjustments you are having to make going from full-time to bi-vocational? Any advice? I just started on as an elder at my church. We’re a two year old church plant with one full-time pastor and a two part-time, so our ministries are being overseen mostly by volunteers. It’s been great so far because many have had to step up and do the work. It helps to keep things simple in terms of programs/ministries. We just started our youth group last week.
Sovann,
We need to chat sometime. We are sort of running in the same vocational experiences, but coming at it from different roles at different times.
All I know is that being a therapist now has helped me set better boundaries in other areas of my life, especially church.
Under Statement One:
1. I don’t think, along with Petey, that bivocational ministry fixes this problem. Sure, one might be more apt to take bigger risks if he/she has less fear of losing a big salary, but isn’t this trying to fix a symptom of a problem and not the problem itself. The problem being: when parishioners don’t get their way they stop giving to the church. As Petey has alluded, if you feel led in a right direction you ought to go that direction whether or not you will lose your job. This seems like a better leadership principle than trying to make it easier on ourselves during these crises.
Petey – I think the idea is that the bivocational pastor would live off of two part time salaries OR a full time salary outside of the church and not draw a salary from the church, hence two part-time salaries = the total of a full time salary.
2. This is a great point Rhett. Most pastor’s (myself included) do not have a good concept what life is like for many in their congregation: going to their full-time job, spending time with family, going on vacations, overtime, soccer games, etc. It is very easy for us to try to impose our world, THE CHURCH, on our congregation without even knowing it. Having another job outside of the church is a good way to relate to their world and understand how busy life can really get. Perhaps you could empathize without being bivocational and in such case the second job would not be necessary. Sometimes we make people in our congregations busier with things to do many times at the cost of hurting their families or their own emotional/spiritual health. I think this is applicable here.
3. This CAN lead to a community of people who are more involved/empowered, but it is not always the case. Simply doing less work as a Pastor certainly does not guarantee that the lay people will do more.
Good thoughts Rhett! I like thinking about these kinds of things.
Me, you, Petey=Ginger Man and theology
Excellent insights across the board! Tentmaking is sure to become an even more common phenom as this economy continues to tank. May the Lord keep us focussed on the main event and provide for us all through whatever means He will (Phil 4.19).