My friend Wess has a great post on the recent issue of the satire magazine, Wittenberg Door. The magazine takes a look at Mark Driscoll and what are his….well, let’s let Wess state it since he puts it much more eloquently.
Most of you know about Mark Driscoll, he’s a mainstream pastor from Seattle with a church of about 6,000 people. He’s also infamous to many for being rather misogynistic, and focused on an overtly-testosterone reading of the Scriptures…..
Wess goes on to say,
After you read that, then read Halden’s post called, “Who Can Driscoll Worship?” where he looks at Driscoll through the eyes of astute theological criticism. This caught my attention partially because of a recent workshop I went to outlining the growing trend in masculine-focused spiritualities: promise keepers, John Elderidge, and the most recent (and most extreme) GodMen, a guys only church where the power-team, meets GI Joe, meets Sunday morning worship. You can see a promo video here. It’s interesting because in a way, it’s not at all surprising that there is an increase in a violence-oriented ministry, given the violence-saturated culture (movies, music, video games) we live in as Americans, but this certainly doesn’t make it okay. What are your thoughts?
Here’s a quote from the article (satire magazine people, remember that):
“Numbers aren’t important, but we’ve grown 81.7% a year since our launch date and I still can’t get the guys to step up and be warriors,” said Kinston. “We want to love our city and we can’t do that with a bunch of pansies who would rather play video games than go to a monster truck rally or tattoo their faces like Mike Tyson.
I’m so glad Wess has written this post. I, as well as many others have been concerned for a long time at the growing trend in men’s Christian movements that seems to equate male Christianity with violence or roughness. We all like the movies Gladiator and Braveheart, and I know Jesus was not just meek, but also a tough person. But they are movies. And his toughness seems to lay in the fact that he gave away his life, and suffered at the hands of men and women who betrayed him…eventually leading to his death on a cross. Not because he fought back with fists and weapons. I just don’t know how we can read the Sermon on the Mount (just to take one examples of Jesus’ teachings), and walk away with any notion that our maleness as a Christian needs to be draped in violence, fighting, fists, and male stereotypes.
True male Christianity (if there is such a gender stereotype) lay in our ability to lay down our lives for others. Jesus says in John 15:12-14:
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.
Or in Mark 12:28-34 when he talks about the two greatest commandments:
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[b] 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c]There is no commandment greater than these.”
I know men and women are different. I know men and women express their spiritual lives often very different than one another. I know little boys often pick up sticks on the ground to use as weapons (without any teaching), and girls sometimes move towards dolls, etc. I know the stereotypes, and I know that we are wired differently as well.
But just because we are made different, doesn’t mean that we need to go on and practice a violent, distorted view of Christianity in our lives. Were Christians killed in the arena? Yes. Is it a violent world? Yes. But living as Christians in this world requires a toughness greater than what you see in the UFC…it requires a toughness to love our enemies, lay down our weapons, and ultimately to lay down our lives. That is what Jesus did, and if we are followers of him, then we don’t need to be men who try and do it differently.
I thought that Brent had a great post Chopping Off Heads and Crying on Shoulders a while back.
Believe it or not I think Mark Driscoll has some good things to say on many issues, but I think they are often clouded because of the rhetoric coming from him in regards to this issue.
What do you think?
When Driscoll says that the Jesus we hear about is a pansy and that we wants a tattooed Jesus with a sword, I think that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard (after all Jesus would never get a tattoo – he was a Jew). I think he’s a marketer ad knows how to sell extremity to people who are as eager to see Jesus the American Gladiator. What they don’t see is that this mesomorphic, steroid-rage Jesus is not only misogynist, but indicative of repressed homosexual desire as some would surely argue.
This zealous attitude is as helpful as Judas’ own attitude. Here I am talking about the Judas of Kazantzakis’ Last Temptation of Christ. A big tough guy chomping at the bit to go to war with Jesus leading the charge. We know how Judas fared in that misguided goal.
In short, it’s totally unbiblical and stupid.
When Driscoll says that the Jesus we hear about is a pansy and that we wants a tattooed Jesus with a sword, I think that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard (after all Jesus would never get a tattoo – he was a Jew). I think he’s a marketer ad knows how to sell extremity to people who are as eager to see Jesus the American Gladiator. What they don’t see is that this mesomorphic, steroid-rage Jesus is not only misogynist, but indicative of repressed homosexual desire as some would surely argue.
This zealous attitude is as helpful as Judas’ own attitude. Here I am talking about the Judas of Kazantzakis’ Last Temptation of Christ. A big tough guy chomping at the bit to go to war with Jesus leading the charge. We know how Judas fared in that misguided goal.
In short, it’s totally unbiblical and stupid.
I just read this. I first thought….no one those quotes are legit.
I think mostly we need to allow Driscoll to have fun. But beyond that…it is a little ridiculous. I want to respect the guy (and mostly I do) but this gives me great pause. Not just this, the whole slew of quotes he has on this topic.
I just read this. I first thought….no one those quotes are legit.
I think mostly we need to allow Driscoll to have fun. But beyond that…it is a little ridiculous. I want to respect the guy (and mostly I do) but this gives me great pause. Not just this, the whole slew of quotes he has on this topic.
Rhett,
I feel this is completely unfair and a mischaracterization. What is your basis for the claim that Driscoll supports or perpetuates a Mysogynistic and Violent Christianity?
I’ve listened to almost every sermon of Driscoll’s at Mars Hill over the past two years, and can say with all honesty, I have never heard anything that is remotely akin to such a claim. Having listened to his whole teaching ministry for nearly two years, I can tell you a lot about the guy, his heart, ministry and beliefs…and they’re anything but violent and misogynistic.
Now I have heard Mark make sarcastic, ironic, cutting & jabbing statements that attack & deconstruct the feminized, responsibility-fearing young men (among others) that he hopes to reach & convict. It’s certainly fair to take issue with his style or effectiveness, if that’s Wess or Haden’s belief. But to apply a sort of ‘hermeneutic trajectory’ to his satire and biting statements, leading to misogynistic, or violent is unfair and reckless. All you have to do is listen to the man’s sermons and theological series to “get” his heart and theological beliefs.
Now, listening to his teaching you will also learn a lot about his background and upbringing that created the personality that loves UFC, bacon and guns. The guy’s background is one of violence, street-fights and family alcoholism and if your listen fairly and with integrity to his teaching, a listener would ‘get that’. Sorry if this offends, but I count him as a ‘man’s man’. And if you ask those that know my heart (or ask my beautiful wife, five daughters and Mom), you would know that any man I would bestow that title on, I would do so not because of some redneck aggression-prone simplistic stereotype, but because week after week he unabashedly preaches repentance, substitutionary atonement, men taking responsibility, serving love for wife and family, being emotionally available and serving towards your wife, respecting girls, women, marriage, celebrating Biblical sexuality and is unafraid to defend and celebrate masculinity.
Sure, there are plenty of missteps and misquotes that have undoubtedly aided his critics. But I have to honestly submit, Rhett, week-after-week, I laugh at the shots he takes and while, I know it will offend some, I never see the big deal. Along with an intellectually honest search through all of his material and teachings, you will also find there are a multitude of sermons & statements out there in which he humbly apologizes, back-tracks, or even talks about John Piper (a man he counts as a dear friend) holding him to account for using “shock-jock humor”.
Without a doubt, if the shoot-first, ask questions later, critics would listen consistently to the messages from Mars Hill, you will hear Mark hit the same drum beat of imploring men to grow-up, keep their pants on, respect and honor women, love their wives, serve their wives, love their kids, provide for their family. Be a leader. Often in story of his own relationship with his wife and children as the “cuddle dad” and “faithful, serving husband” become evident and the example of what his faith looks like at home. I would suggest listening to him preach through the weight of “loving his wife as Christ loves the Church” to have a more intellectually honest basis for understanding where Driscoll comes down on Biblical husbandry.
As far as the larger, underlying detraction in Wess, Haden (and perhaps your) post(s), about a concern or discontent with ministries or pastors that seek to really serve men…I totally and completely “get” where Mark Driscoll is coming from, and who he’s talking to. I fully believe that true, Biblical manhood is scarce in our culture. I feel it’s religiously (pun intended) under attack. And it is as epidemic within our culture. It’s actually going to be the purpose and premise of the book I am setting out to write. I really feely that men need a clear picture, definition, defense and roadmap to Biblical masculinity. Men must be held to account for the miserable state of marriage in our culture. For the rampant, debt-laden, financial messes in our country. For the broken homes, incarceration rates and failing Churches. And for the 65% of men in the Church that are addicted to porn. It’s cataclysmic. It’s a tragedy of Biblical proportions (again, pun intended). And you don’t solve it by everyone talking through their feelings, and packaging the Gospel as a way to ‘feel better’ about everything in your life. (Clearly that’s a whole separate discussion).
I’ve never heard Driscoll try to re-package Jesus or the Gospel to ‘create or reinforce his worldview…or serve the other world in which he lives’. I would challenge anyone to go through his sermons and point out where he’s not faithful to scriptures. I have heard him deliver the gospel for years with a style, tone and approach that is, well, just plain type-A masculine. He’s in your face. He preaches election, repentance and the depravity of man. He illustrates the whole nature of God, to include God’s wrath, by preaching exegetically through scripture. God gets pissed off sometimes, and so does Mark. Jesus does in fact come back with a tattoo in the book of Revelation. But that’s beside the point…I feel that it’s pretty easy to understand that Mark delivers lines like that to illustrate a point. It’s a joking line, meant to get a laugh (and it does every time I’ve heard him deliver it). As a Calvanist, he doesn’t even believe that he had a choice to worship Jesus—limp-wristed hippie, or not. It’s just meant to be funny. I really don’t get the offense that’s taken by the things that he says, at times. (Unless I were Mormon, I’d be pretty pissed to hear him say that my religion was deception of demons and that I was ‘riding my bicycle to hell’). It’s I would also caution taking judgment of him, his ministry and theology by the handful of charged statements, out of context…less we and our lives also be judged by the same. I’m just sayin….
We must insist upon real, Biblical leadership from our men. And while his style and delivery is bound to always piss some people off, Mark Driscoll does nothing less than exhibit a commitment to scripture through exegetical teaching. I truly feel that week after week, he faithfully unpacks a literal interpretation of scripture in ways that are delivered in plain English, through examples that are practical and relevant (if they may hurt feelings) with good old, simple humor, sarcasm and irony.
I humbly thank you for your consideration.
Wow, I set out to make a quick statement and had to sit down and read a book! But Jared’s comment was thoughtful, so I can’t complain.
Rhett – while I tend to agree with you most of the time, and generally do here – I’ll end up going to the “all things to all people” reference by Paul. Yeah, I think monster truck rallies are stupid, wouldn’t own a gun if you bought it for me and would rather stick a needle in my eye than sit in a tree stand and watch for deer – there are men out there who need to connect with God and their “culture” needs to be infiltrated. If Mark’s doing that, good for him. Yeah, he’s probably leaving dead bodies in his wake here and there, but we’ve never known pastors or churches to do that, right?
While I’ve never found Driscoll to be completely compelling, others have. Yeah, he’s probably promoting a vision of Christianity – or of following Christ that doesn’t resonate with me – if he’s preaching the gospel, if he’s faithfully sharing the good news of Jesus, I’m finding it hard to cast stones. We eat our own enough in the Church and I think there’s more than enough out there to balance his views & preaching.
Jared:
Thanks for your comments. I think I would take his comments as being out of context except they keep building up. It was just a little over a year and half ago that Driscoll had to come out and apologize for all his comments, due to the firestorm surrounding many of his statements, which led to a planned protest of his church.
The comment I find most offensive is this in regard to Ted Haggard scandal:
“Most pastors I know do not have satisfying, free, sexual conversations and liberties with their wives. At the risk of being even more widely despised than I currently am, I will lean over the plate and take one for the team on this. It is not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness. A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either.” http://www.findingrhythm.com/blog/?p=493
Scot McKnight had a pretty good series as well.
Post by Scot McKnight: http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=1697
To answer my question that I pose as the subject. Misogyny is a strong word…you are right. I have a couple of female friends who have had some personal interaction with him in Seattle (wanting to get involved in ministry, etc.), and they walked away with some pretty strong feelings that he doesn’t really like women.
Obviously, we will disagree. There is definitely a following of Dricollites….and he can do no wrong.
I’m glad you have been learning from him though, and feel like you have been growing, maturing, etc. due to his teaching.
rhett
Don:
Touche!
As Tony Jones put it…there are different views of Christianity being cast:
http://theoblogy.blogspot.com/2007/10/different-versions-of-christianity.html#comments
Jared, careful to make Mark Driscoll into an idol. He’s got some great things to share…but I worry about any of us getting to attached and defensive of any pastor. Have you looked at GodMen? Have you read the article in the Wittenberg Door? I find that some of the most inflammatory statements have been made on his blogs and at leadership conferences…less in his sermons.
The things he says are of a very narrow brand of masculinity. One that is VERY hurtful to men who don’t fit his parameters. I wrote about that back a few years ago when we were all dialoguing about GodMen and Driscoll’s words which were “misinterpreted” blaming Haggard’s wife for his homosexual infidelity. I wrote this as part of a post:
http://kristievosper.typepad.com/honestlyspeaking/2006/10/godmen_mark_dri.html
“I find myself reacting in a protection of men who do not like sports, who don’t have an interest in Ultimate Fighting and who may not ever desire to watch an episode of Jack Ass. As a girl raised by a man who is an Eagle Scout, Scuba Diver, Backpacker, ER Technician, Elder in the church, Youth group volunteer, Off pitch hymn singer, Science enthusiast, lover of all things nature…I have a significant understanding that masculinity is not defined as narrowly as some would like.”
I just don’t think Jesus would like how much he makes fun of people in our culture. Jesus is SILENT about the kind of gender stuff that Driscoll seems to think is so important and vital to the gospel. I see a tender Jesus subverting cultural gender lines: sitting by a well with a woman, and inviting Mary to learn from him. Jesus levels the playing field, quicker to negate the cultural lines that divide through stories like the Good Samaritan, and telling Martha that she didn’t need to fill her roll in the kitchen but that it was “better” that she join the men at His feet.
I think it’s a good and right conversation to discuss gender differences and the way our culture has taken some of what allows us to thrive as men a women. I find Driscoll’s comments and jabs to be shallow and damaging on a wide spread level, misrepresenting Jesus Christ.
My mom taught me something that I think applies here: When someone is constantly telling you about who they are, how great their marriage is, or in this case how masculine they are over and over and over again…it’s good to question who it is they’re trying to convince.
It doesn't say that their were men at Jesus' feet. Check your facts.
I really felt like Jared hit it on the head in his post. Most of you are getting upset about things that are really inconsequential to the big picture. Driscoll is looking to promote Biblical masculinity by preaching the gospel unapologetically, so i really don’t see the big problem. It seems like all the arguments seem to be based around how he chooses to illustrate things. If a pastor is big into sports and cars and cliche “man stuff” then chances are hes going to integrate those things into his sermons… In the same way, if a pastor is a painter, or a sculptor, he might use those things in his illustrations… And sure, he does say things that may not be 100 hundred percent full-proof every now and then (who doesn’t?) and he has, as you have noticed, apologized for/retracted certain statements. In the end, it seems like a lot of you don’t really have a problem with what Mark Driscoll teaches but rather with Mark Driscoll himself.
Some of what Mr. Driscoll says about ‘real masculinity’ isn’t modeled in Scripture, it’s just his own idea of how men are supposed to act. We’d be much better off studying how Jesus lived and patterning ourselves after Him. In the end, God is conforming us to the image of His Son anyway, not to Mark Driscoll’s image of a real man.
Get a life! I’m so tired of seeing junk like this where pastors berate pastors and criticize style and mode… you don’t like him… fine! there are probably people out there who can’t stand you, I’m kinda leaning that way myself but we are all one body and whether we like each other we need to recognize that the person we don’t like is a flawed sinful individual redeemed ONLY by Christ’s sacrifice! God sees us as blameless because of his son so why waste time blaming, finger pointing and name calling… where’s the gospel in that, where’s the example that leadership needs to set of a functional community under God’s love and authority.
Give Driscoll a call but keep the hate off the net.
Go to him, bring a few who love him, then go to the church… isn’t that the order of rebuke? I see no internet slamming in that.
I hope this stops… you could even exercise the judgement to remove this from your blog.
Shalom (cause that’s the point)
Johnny