I just want to acknowledge that there were and are many angles that I could have gone yesterday in my post Showing Skin at Church.
I knew this going into the post, writing the post, and at the conclusion. And it was even more evident when I received lots of feedback from a lot of you, most of it not in the comment section, but via email, Facebook chat, etc. All good thoughts.
I could have addressed the issue of men more, and the responsibility they have in this issue.
I could have gone deeper on the issue of why modesty is important.
I could have talked about the disposition of our hearts, and how that can be a guide to what modesty looks like in our lives.
I could have tried to offer guidelines. That gets messy quickly.
I could have talked about the nuances of dress, and how what might be modest in some cultures, is or isn’t in others.
So you see…lots of angles, lots of positions…lots of places to go.
And though none of my commenters or friends talked to me about this, I do want to be clear about something: This is not just an issue that we are to put on women, or blame them. That would be like Adam blaming Eve for eating the apple, taking no responsibility for himself. There is a vicious cycle at work here, and I think we all contribute to it to some degree. So the best thing we can do is to come together as communities and be open and honest about it, and the struggles that proceed. And we can be of encouragement to each other.
My friend Wess has a great post where he delves deeper into the heart of the issue: On Immodesty: Too Much Skin (At Church and Elsewhere)?
Also, I’m sure Anne Jackson could have taken her post in many different directions as well, but was speaking out of her heart based on certain circumstances, etc. She continues to raise great questions in her writings.
When we think of the issue of modesty, or showing skin, in church or elsewhere….What are some angles or points of discussion that you would like to see raised?
As a woman, do you feel like the Church blames you, or puts the focus on you most of the time for this issue?
Or what questions do you have in your mind that you would like to see answered or at least wrestled with? One friend was asking me if there are appropriate times, places and contexts for women to dress sexy? So you see, there are a million rabbit trails we can go down, and I’m no expert. So let me hear from all of you.
While I definitely believe the responsibility of modesty/lusting is a dichotomy, as a woman I see it largely beginning with females. Men come to church thinking it’s a safe place and some women are failing to provide it. (Perhaps unaware of the way men are wired.)
Frankly, I think there needs to be more church-guided education on the visual minds of males. Most women have NO idea just how powerful images and skin can be because we’re wired so differently. Yes, we know guys like to look at us, but most of us don’t understand that something we wear can force a guy to pull up a Rolodex of images that he doesn’t want to think about. There’s a great book – “For Women Only” that talks in depth about the power of the image for Christian men and the constructive ways women can support and encourage them, instead of making it more challenging. And it’s called “For Women Only” because it’s not about the ways women can change men, but change the way they help/hinder the way men naturally are.
Is skin the only thing, or could tight clothes do it too? Or make-up, or attractiveness in general? Are we talking legs, in shorts? It’s really hot here in Texas in the summer. Or necklines? Just make it REALLY cold in your church. Haha… I thought the styles were getting better. I don’t see nearly as many midriffs these days. Maybe it’s because I’m a woman, but I think there are so few women that actually look good in the skimpy stuff that most of the ones wearing it shouldn’t be. Then it’s just ugly. But that’s a different set of problems.
I don’t know. A man should be able to accept that a woman is attractive without becoming impure. To a degree, of course. But I’d think it had more to do with style than an actual piece of clothing. What is skimpy on one person may not be on the other, depending on sizes, etc…
And I am a very modest dresser, but I know what I can and can’t pull off
I will be glad when fashion moves past low-rider pants
I’ve seen some modestly dressed Sunday School teachers accidentaly flash too much when bending down to help a kid….
In general…when I see an overdressed or overly sexed up person at church…I know they are trying to attract attention…but more importantly…I am glad they are at church and I’d rather they come to church than not come. It is tricky…and we are all in different stages of spiritual maturity…so, I wish we didn’t have deal with this at church and wish it were a safe place…but the truth is, that the church is for broken people and the more broken people who come…the more weird issues will arise…so, I don’t have the answers but I know I should pray for those who offend me. God knows the whole story (and I bet there are some doozies!)
Great post on a big issue in our culture and church. I think Syd brings up a great point talking about wanting broken people in church and how we are all different in our journey through spiritual maturity. the difficult part is that we really are all in different places, and we may not know what causes whom to stumble, so how do we encourage one another (both guys and girls) toward a deeper relationship with God and one that therefore transforms us to be more modest and fight lust better?
I cant say I have any answers but if the attention thing is true, maybe we need to be offering better and truer validation that comes from God rather than our culture’s validation through appearance and sexuality. That project rests squarely on all of our shoulders, not just men or women. We (The Church) need to do a better job of valuing women as children of God and for the values that come with being a child of God. I can’t say I know how to do that without doing the overplayed-Psalm-139-body-image type talk, but when we make those truths more real, maybe that will change where women look for acceptance and worth.(Psalm 139 is very powerful to me by the way, I don’t mean to diminish the power of scripture telling us we are God’s masterpiece)
As for the men we need to continually educate about fighting lust, and continually call one another to be accountable. that’s oversimplified, but those are my simple thoughts.
Can’t tell if you have trackback enabled, but I just wrote a quick post about this on my blog, focusing more on what we DO about this issue. http://annabroadway.blogspot.com/2008/05/immodesty-in-church.html
If a church really acted with extreme Christ like love and embraced everyone that walked in the door with the same kind of acceptance that Christ seemed to pour onto people…many of the ‘symptoms’ of a wounded heart would dissipate. The solution to most problems are: more Christ, less me….and sometimes that includes a little therapy too. In Colossians it says “in this new life, it doesn’t matter if you are a jew or a gentile, circumcized or uncircumcized, barbaric, uncivilized, slave or free. Christ is all that matters, and He lives in all of us”
But…it would seem that in order for an entire group of people to catch hold of this ‘extreme love’ idea…it would have to be talked about, preached about, studied about, and be the true focus of the leaders of the church. I mean, ultimately, it is just focusing on imitating Christ. Soooooo unatural for most of us…so it is nice to write about and harder to do.
Seriously. You want to go there?
Way to send women right back to the early 1900s when men could tell them how to dress, what to do, where to go, etc. While we’re curbing their dress and the types of things that make them feel like confident people, let’s also take away their right to vote and keep ‘em barefoot and pregnant. I linked to this from Anna Broadway’s blog, and I can’t believe she even made it through this.
Here’s my take on the matter, church should be a place where people come to worship and fellowship. Unfortunately, all the trappings of a rock concert abound. Church leaders have chosen to drive off people who used to go to church, but cannot stand the drums and synthesizers and other mind-numbing feel-good drivel and trade traditional churchgoers for those who like more modern services. If this is the type of church you frequent (these days you would be hard-pressed not to), you have no room to complain. I personally only go periodically hoping to see a return to more traditional services. It’s sad when you can’t find a Methodist church without a set of drums in the pulpit. The blame rests squarely on the shoulders of church leaders for secularizing chuch services – plain and simple.
As for women tempting men by wearing (gasp) a low-cut top or a short skirt, get over it. Many women have issues that they feel they can offset through their appearance. And if men cannot see a little cleavage without tuning out the sermon and having lustful yearnings for an hour, men have bigger problems. I would say that there are inherent issues with porn addiction underlying a man who cannot focus because of a little cleavage.
God created women, God created breasts, God created sex. I know I am quite a bit more liberal on this topic than most of your posters, but I truly believe that this Puritanic view of sex, sexuality and women tempting men is ludicrous. God also created self control. Use it. And while we’re on the topic, should you really have to hire a service to tattle on you if you look for porn on the internet? Self control, my friend.
Brent
I agree with Syd. The church is made and full of broken people who come from all sorts of different walks of life and backgrounds. The church is made for everyone. What is modest for one person could be crazy overly sexy for another. Who is to write up all the rules for dress code? And even if there were a “rule book” for how one should dress for church, the game would then be to find the loopholes within the rulebook. Humans tend to be good at that. Rather than look at a person and think, “why can’t she wear a shirt that hides those boobs”, we should be glad she’s even at church.
As for myself, I do try to dress modestly for church. But I gotta admit there have been those hot summer August afternoons where I’ve put on a halter-top to wear to the 6pm church service and thought, could I? I want to. Badly. But I don’t. Save it for the barbecue, I think to myself and then I put on a more modest shirt. But as soon as you hand me that book of rules, that halter-top is going to be flying on. Perhaps it’s best to keep our attention on getting deeper into God’s word and God’s love. It might make us all a little stronger and a little wiser. =)
Hey everyone:
Thanks for all your posts. I appreciate your input and at some level I agree with you all, and may disagree at some level with others perhaps.
If you look at my posts, I never really talked about any needed dress code, or even wanted to offer up rules and regulations.
It is simply an observation…and perhaps not a good one, especially when many aren’t familiar with the church context I pastor in. I am not some Puritan “freaking out” over a women showing her ankle…or outraged with a woman in a short skirt, or even showing cleavage. My concern was that we really don’t make an effort at all sometimes to cover “anything up” out of respect for others and some semblance of modesty that I think is important in any culture.
But I agree. Church is where Jesus called all the sick, hurt and injured…and that means all of us…and that means everything we bring with it..all our issues, foibles, etc. And that’s the way it should be. So that being the case, we will just continue to wrestle with issues such as this. But I’m certainly glad that people are in church and that dress is not a hindrance.
I remember going to church when I first got my ears pierced (three earrings) and all the looks I received (my dad was the pastor). I remember the horror of seeing someone in flip flops one day (this was long ago when that was uncommon), but now Reef sandals is about all you will see me in at church.
So I’m not wanting to push a dress code. If you look at Wess and I’s blog, one of the underlying issues for us was the issue of being first time father’s, and raising our daughter’s in this culture, young girls at a very early age are often affirmed and revered for their sexuality, dress, etc. The age is only getting younger and younger, that now we have common vocabulary in the culture such as “prositot” which is very unfortunate.
Underlying my concern was also my experience in college ministry for over 10 years, and my work in a counseling setting…and the issues that arose time and time again with females concerning the sexual objectification of them, especially in terms of what they wore, which is usually how it started.
These are sensitive issues…way too, too deep for me to have blurted, or ranted about in a post. I should have done a better job.
I will do some more research on this issue, and explore some collaborative authorship and blogging from various perspectives. It was unwise of me as a male to head into this territory without other opinions first, etc.
Those of you who know me, know that I am a huge egalitarian, and have written on the topic, defended, and advocated for women, especially when it comes to the Church. That’s one of the main reasons I went to Fuller Seminary and am a part of the PCUSA. So I’m pretty sure I’m not patriarchical or oppressive to women, because I may advocate for issues of modesty in some facets of life. And with a masters in marriage and family therapy as well as my master of divinity, I am quite aware of our sexual nature, and who God has created us to be…but also the boundaries we live in as well.
There is more I could say…but I look forward to further dialogue.
Last, one commenter made a comment about how I should have more self control rather than signing up for Covenant Eyes which is a porn online monitoring service. I guess I actually consider that a form of self control and I have decided early on to set some boundaries in my behavior, especially when much of my work and leisure revolves around the internet. Porn addiction is staggering in this culture, and is especially growing among females. So I just don’t believe I’m foolish enough that I can spend 40 or so hours a week online and not set some proper boundaries. It was weird to sign up at first, but have found it a very beneficial tool that many are using.
It’s not just about self control. Just read this book for starters and you might change your mind: Pornified: How Pornography Is Transforming Our Lives, Our Relationships, and Our Families http://www.amazon.com/Pornified-Pornography-Transforming-Relationships-Families/dp/0805077456
You can go to http://www.covenanteyes.com for their service and also http://www.xxxchurch.com has a service as well.
thanks,
rhett
Hey Rhett…
I love that you signed up for Covenant Eyes and were open about it. It doesn’t mean you have a problem…It is a safety net…and a fence…and you have probably seen too many people come into counseling when the wheels have already come off and they are in a ditch…better to prevent. Billy Graham set rules for himself as a protection…for himself and so no one could make a false claim against him. He would not walk into his hotel room alone, but went with another man just to make sure there was no one ‘waiting for him’ (or something like that)…and never had a meal alone with a woman other than his wife.
It’s just plain wise and I wish all pastors did that cause it may have saved a few families from falling a part.
Good blogging, Rhett…I meant to go to bed an hour ago…
Rhett,
I must say that it was unwise of me to rag on your choice to sign up for the web service. While I disagree with the premise, I am sure there is a need for it out there. And there are many sad case studies of men who have spent many thousands of dollars on online porn. It wound up wrecking families and lives. So, in the scheme of such unfortunte events, this may be a valuable service.
I do appologize. I get rather incensed about men who try to take away rights from women that they have fought long and hard for. And I probably expressed some of that anger by taking a shot at the porn monitoring service.
I simply do not feel that men have a right to blame their shortcomings on women, nor legislate the view of morality that they believe in. Until a man has walked a mile in her halter top or been forced to give birth to an unwanted baby, I do feel it’s best that men’s opinions should take a back seat on women’s issues.
Brent
Brent:
Thanks for the comments. I’m sure if we sat down and chatted we would be able to work through the differences that are maybe exacerbated online, rather than personally. I agree with you. Men should not blame their shortcomings on women at all.
And I can see how I was blaming, though that wasn’t my intent, it came across that way.
So I’m glad for the correction from some people.
It’s been a good dialogue.
rhett
Brent, I hope that you read the following with an open mind as I wish to challenge your thinking. What you do with what I say is up to you.
I don’t think it is our intent to send women back to the 1900′s were men dictated what women where. So what do you say to the men in the fashion industry designing clothes, are they not dictating to some degree what women wear when they design immodest clothing that becomes desirable to women to wear? I’m not in favor of exercising control over women, but that Christian women would think lovingly and selflessly towards us guys whom God has designed to be visually stimulated when they ponder what to wear for the day or an event. Modest dress is a very sticky and sensitive issue.
I certainly agree with some of the posters who feel that men should be held responsible for their own part in this issue. We can exercise self-control, but we will not do so perfectly. James says in 1:14 that when a man is tempted, he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed. This suggests that any selfishly lustful thoughts towards a woman’s body whether through porn or seeing the many women walking around wearing whatever, or lack thereof, rises up from within us. I could glance and admire God’s creation and the beauty thereof, but as soon as I want that for myself for my own pleasure (pleasure is not bad, but it can be if selfishness is involved) and gain. I want what is not mine to have.
I’ve seen a couple of movies somewhat recently that had rape scenes in them. When i tried putting myself in the shoes and situation that these women were in, it was disgusting and repulsive what some men do out of lust and selfishness! Imagine being helpless and vulnerable as a group of men rip your clothes of and fondle you with several holding your arms and legs so that you cannot fight against them as the take turns violating a precious and intimate part of your body. These men seek pleasure for themselves; they care not for the well being or the welfare of the women that they are sinfully (selfishly) abusing. I’m trying to paint sin as graphically as I can without being so grotesque that readers might complain about the graphic nature of example. I believe that once a person can get their brain wrapped around just how ugly sin (selfishness) is, it will become less appealing.
Brent:
Just what is it about guitars, drums, and synths that is secular? Is not the guitar a stringed instrument like the piano and the lyre (an instrument David used)? What makes something secular? Did not God create the material to make each of those instruments? Me thinks that since you likely grew up in an era when electric guitars were associated with rock & roll which equals devil music. I’ll be bold here and say that you are utterly wrong in this regard to music. Now, before you get all upset, I prefer the more traditional music myself, but I don’t equate electric guitars ans such to the devil. What are you going to do with that $20 bill in your pocket that was used to pay a prostitute, or a drug dealer at one time in it’s life? Are you going to poo-poo on that too because it was used for something bad? I doubt it sir. If you applied the same faulty use of logic as you do to electric guitars and drums in a church service then you would have to make some major lifestyle changes if you applied that logic broadly. Nothing is secular (evil, sinful, bad) in itself as you seem to think. All things are sacred. This sacred/secular dichotomy has caused plenty of problems for Christians and the church. It seems that your statement of being more liberally minded doesn’t apply to this issue. Culture changes and so will church services and the forms that worship takes. This isn’t a bad thing, but Christians need to be careful with what changes to make nonetheless. Would you demand that the Africans stop using their native drums and other instruments for worship because some of them may be secular instruments? I would hope not for you would be imposing our culture on them and that is wrong since we don’t have THE culture that all others should ascribe to. I took a Cultural Anthropology class and it was rather enlightening to say the least. We as Americans are rather high minded about our culture and find most all other cultures inferior to our own. Capt James Cook was impressed with the hospitality and generosity of the Polynesians when he visited one of the island that they inhabited. He realized that all the modern conveniences and industrialization couldn’t meet basic human needs. He left profoundly impacted by another culture we would deem primitive. Does God really care what instrument is used so long as the motivation for using it is that of worship to the Most High God and not for performance or show? I will admit that sometimes it seems that the time of worshiping in song in a church service seems like a performance where the musicians are showing off, but I’ve listened to vocalists showing off their pipes that bothered me more than the electric guitarist who was playing in the group. I digress.
Perhaps your argument that men should be taking responsibility for their actions is a cover that you use to justify women wearing what ever they want so you can gaze upon that exposed cleavage. I’m being facetious here. I don’t particularly appreciate your equating any issues that men have with lustful thoughts being inherent to an underlying addiction to pornography. I have virtually no desire whatsoever to go back and become re-addicted to pornography. I struggled with it until I realized that nothing I could do would free me from the chains of addiction. It was only when I stopped trying to break my addiction and instead turned my eyes upon Jesus and began walking in the Spirit that God was then able to break my addiction. Remember James 1:14? Our own lustful and evil desires to sin issue from within us. I believe that when men begin walking by the Spirit and allowing God to deal with their selfish (sinful) desires and to bring their thoughts from objectification of women to recognizing that women are people too, then they may see greater success against pornography, alcoholism, etc. This happens over a period of time. If you are focusing on yourself (key word) and gaining victory over sin, which is noble, however, I believe that you are sinning when you try to beat sin in your own power. You can’t do it! This is where the whole part about self-control come into play. I don’t have a great answer to give regarding how much we can do as frail human beings, but I’ll leave the details up to you and God in how to exercise self-control. You should be working with Him and not against Him.
Brent, you are right in that God created sex, breasts, etc. I don’t like that fact that our puritanical church fathers held a low view of sexual pleasure. But they were likely reacting to the culture at that time just as we react to our culture at this time. Balance is key, because too often we swing to extremes and we have people posting the most unloving and unkind words towards their fellow Christian brethren. I have been somewhat harsh in my reply but I’m a bit incensed at the fact that too many Christians don’t bother to search for the truth but instead think that they know the truth. You see, we as human beings think that we are right and we can justify our rightness in our own mind while failing to realize that everyone else thinks differently about those things we hold in our mind as absolute truth. I’m not against absolute truth. There are a number of things we think absolutely about that we need to rethink. Take traditional and contemporary worship styles for example. You probably cling to the traditional because that is what you grew up with and that is what you are used to. I favor the traditional style not because it is more godly or biblical, but because the writers of the old hymns tended to focus on what God has done on our behalf. Contemporary music seem to focus more on how the writer of the song feels (key word) towards God. Reflecting on what God has done for me is more moving that singing about how the writer feels about God when he/she penned the words to it.
Anyway, I’ve gone on long enough. Hopefully these words will stir up thoughts and reflection on beliefs and whether their needs to be some adjustment. I’m always refining what I believe because I find that I am wrong about things.